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tdf? 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:00 pm Reply with quote
poufthecascadeur
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Location: toulon,france
i purchase those frame and fork
Is it a post 1974 tdf?the bottom shell is in bsc is it normal?



par avance merci![/img]
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:49 pm Reply with quote
sandranian
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Location: Southern California
Looks like a TdF....

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:03 pm Reply with quote
greyhundguy
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 678
Location: South-Central VIRGINIA
It appears to be a 75 TdF or a French/Euro equivalent model. Can you post more detailed photos?

Jay

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:51 am Reply with quote
poufthecascadeur
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Location: toulon,france
Sorry I don't have much pictures ,but the saler says that the 3 main tubes and the fork are made of reynolds 531 so I suppose it's a tdf.
The price is for me a bit high (50euros frame and fork) and the frame was transformed in bsc...
I hesitate...
I lost last week a complete tdf for only 30euros!


(sorry for my poor english! Crying or Very sad )
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:51 am Reply with quote
greyhundguy
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 678
Location: South-Central VIRGINIA
If I could find frame sets like this for 50 Euros ($68. US) here in the United States, I would buy all I could.

Jay

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TdF or Champion Du Monde 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:37 pm Reply with quote
verktyg
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 2813
Location: SF Bay Area
It could be a 1974-76 Champion Du Monde, Olympic or Super Olympic frame depending on some small details.

Or... It could be a 1976 TdF. Gitane didn't use chromed rear stays on TdFs between 1974 and 1976.

It has what looks like the remnants of a Reynolds decal on the fork and maybe willow leaf seat stay caps which would make it one of the better models.

I'd never seen an orange Gitane with the green decals until an Interclub level bike showed up on eBay a few months back. Nice color combo.

Looks like about a 54-56cm size.

I'll buy it from you if you want to "flip" it.

La "flip" (chiquenaude) est une transaction achat-vente rapide.

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Chas.
SF Bay Area, CA USA
==============
1984 Criterium
1969 TdF
1971 TdF
1974 TdF
1984 TdF x 2 Bikes
1970 SC
1971 SC
1972 SC
1984 SC
1984 Team Pro
1985 Professional
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Re: TdF or Champion Du Monde 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:03 pm Reply with quote
greyhundguy
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 678
Location: South-Central VIRGINIA
verktyg wrote:
It could be a 1974-76 Champion Du Monde, Olympic or Super Olympic frame depending on some small details.


Chas.,
The Catalog section lists these as being all Reynolds 531 frames. "poufthecascadeur" states it as being 3 tubes 531. I'll stay with TdF. Then again, who knows when it comes to Gitane and their "or best available".

Jay

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Re: TdF or Champion Du Monde 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:13 pm Reply with quote
verktyg
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 2813
Location: SF Bay Area
greyhundguy wrote:
verktyg wrote:
It could be a 1974-76 Champion Du Monde, Olympic or Super Olympic frame depending on some small details.


Chas.,

The Catalog section lists these as being all Reynolds 531 frames. "poufthecascadeur" states it as being 3 tubes 531. I'll stay with TdF. Then again, who knows when it comes to Gitane and their "or best available".
Jay


Hi Jay,

"...the saler says that the 3 main tubes and the fork are made of reynolds 531..."

This definitely looks like the remnants of a Reynolds fork decal.



The steering tube looks awful long for a Stronglight P3 headset. It looks like there's enough room for a Campy headset.

Hopefully better picture will tell.

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Chas.
SF Bay Area, CA USA
==============
1984 Criterium
1969 TdF
1971 TdF
1974 TdF
1984 TdF x 2 Bikes
1970 SC
1971 SC
1972 SC
1984 SC
1984 Team Pro
1985 Professional
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:03 am Reply with quote
greyhundguy
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 678
Location: South-Central VIRGINIA
Chas.,
It is my understanding that "tout Reynolds 531" (catalog) indicates that the seat and chain stays would be 531 as well, not just three tubes and fork (seller). The models you list from the catalogs are spec'd "Tout". The TdF, 3 Tubes and would likely have included a 531 fork.

So, let each of us come to our own conclusions. Without the frame having all of its original components there is no way to be sure what the frame is. It's an upper tier Gitane from the mid '70's and you like Orange.

Jay

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Tout 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:10 pm Reply with quote
verktyg
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 2813
Location: SF Bay Area
Jay,

So fellow contrarian, since we're at loggerheads, here's my opinions for other viewers: Wink

From WikiAnswers:

"Tout", "toute", "tous" and "toutes" are all variations on the word "all" or "everything"

I've never seen a Gitane with a "3 TUBES RENFORCE" Reynolds 531 frame decal and a Reynolds fork decal too.



"3 TUBES RENFORCE" means only the 3 main tubes are butted Reynolds 531 tubing. The rest of the tubes were who knows what???

The Foil Decal era Gitane Tour de France frames were "all Reynolds 531 tubing" or at least 9 of the 11 tubes were. European manufacturers including Gitane frequently used cheap seamed tubing for the head tubes plus cheap steering tubes.

The 1974 and 1975 TdF frames had only the 3 main tubes made of Reynolds. These 3 Main Tube frames eventually moved down to a few Interclub models around 1976 and the TdFs were again all Reynolds tubing with 1/2 chrome plating on the forks and stays.

The Reynolds 531 3 main tubes thing was mostly a marketing gimmick because the Reynolds tubing used most of the time was 7/10 meaning the butted ends were 1.0mm thick while the mid section was 0.7mm thick.

Much less expensive butted Durifort and less expensive Vitus 172 main tubes had the same wall thickness specs and would have provided the same kind of ride with adequate strength (but not the image factor of Reynolds 531).


The all Reynolds 531 French decals say:

GUARANTI
CONSTRIUT
AVEC
REYNOLDS 531
TUBES RENFORCES
FOURREAUX DE FOURCHE
ET ARRIERES

Meaning: GUARANTEED BUILT WITH REYNOLDS 531 BUTTED MAIN TUBES, FORKS AND REAR STAYS.





If we can see some additional pictures of the Reynolds fork and down tube decals, lugs and seat stays then it will be easier to guess at the exact model! Laughing


BTW, I have 2 Motobecanes with the 3 TUBES RENFORCE frame decals plus Reynolds 531 fork decals. One is a 1977 and the other an early 80s.

So are they all Reynolds 531 tubing? Maybe, maybe not because they have double taper seat stays (which Reynolds made but were not that common).

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Chas.
SF Bay Area, CA USA
==============
1984 Criterium
1969 TdF
1971 TdF
1974 TdF
1984 TdF x 2 Bikes
1970 SC
1971 SC
1972 SC
1984 SC
1984 Team Pro
1985 Professional
1990s Team Replica
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Re: Tout 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:12 pm Reply with quote
greyhundguy
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 678
Location: South-Central VIRGINIA
verktyg wrote:
.
I've never seen a Gitane with a "3 TUBES RENFORCE" Reynolds 531 frame decal and a Reynolds fork decal too.


Chas.,

I take this to mean, on the Left Coast of the US or not yet. Could it not be possible that on East Coast of the US or European versions were built differently?

Jay

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Re: Tout 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:22 pm Reply with quote
verktyg
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 2813
Location: SF Bay Area
greyhundguy wrote:
verktyg wrote:
I've never seen a Gitane with a "3 TUBES RENFORCE" Reynolds 531 frame decal and a Reynolds fork decal too.

Chas.,

I take this to mean, on the Left Coast of the US or not yet. Could it not be possible that on East Coast of the US or European versions were built differently?

Jay


"Quand les poules auront des dents"



...or in English:



Laughing Laughing Laughing


The French tubing manufacturer Ateliers de la Rive produced high quality tubing from the 1930s through the 1990s. Back in the day, two of their products, Durifort and Vitus were considered premium quality bicycle tubing in France and probably other parts of the Continent.

All through the 1960s and early 70s, top quality French bikes were made with Durifort forks and stays plus Reynolds 531 for the 3 main tubes. Even the Spanish Zeus bikes used this combination.







These decals were important marketing features that defined better quality bikes. Unfortunately many of them were very fragile water slide or paper backed decals and were easily damaged.

Eventually frames made with all Reynolds 531 tubing became the hot ticket.


From looking at old photos and catalogs, Gitane used the Durifort forks and stays/Reynolds 531 main tube combination up until the Foil Decal era that started in 1968.

Gitane probably continued using Durifort tubing intermittently on some models such as the Interclub and Track Standard plus some of the European only models but without any tubing identification decals. The 1967 Interclub is advertised as having a Durifort frame. Some later models used straight gage Durifort tubing but that was a different situation than we're discussing here.


Getting back to the original topic, I think that it's highly unlikely that Gitane would have made frames with only the 3 main tubes and forks made of Reynolds 531. Confused

The cost savings from using non Reynolds rear stays would have been insignificant. Also remember this was a time when cyclists in the US buying better quality bikes were becoming more savvy.


From 1968 until mid 1964 (the Foil Decal era), all of the Gitanes advertised in the US with Reynolds tubing had "all" 9 (not all 11) tubes made of Reynolds 531: Tour de France, Super Corsa, Professional Super Pista , Gran Tourisme (plus the all Reynolds custom made tandems built by Alex Singer which had a lot more tubes).

The 1973 and 74 French catalogs list several bikes with 3 tubes Reynolds frames and the Mexico track bike came out in 1974.

The 1974 and 75 TdFs didn't sell that well in the US and Gitane lost big time market share to Peugeot PX-10s and Raleigh Competitions both of which had all Reynolds 531 frames!

That's probably one of the reasons why Gitane went back to all Reynolds 531 frames on the 1976 TdFs!


Having a frame made of premium quality tubing was what defined the bikes in this price range and above.

A brand name decal on the forks almost always inferred that the rear stays were made of the same tubing. It's the forks and stays that determine the ride and to some degree handling qualities of the bike, not the 3 main tubes.

So unless or until we see more pictures the jury is still out.

In the mean time - Go shovel snow! Twisted Evil

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Chas.
SF Bay Area, CA USA
==============
1984 Criterium
1969 TdF
1971 TdF
1974 TdF
1984 TdF x 2 Bikes
1970 SC
1971 SC
1972 SC
1984 SC
1984 Team Pro
1985 Professional
1990s Team Replica
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Re: Tout 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:39 am Reply with quote
greyhundguy
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 678
Location: South-Central VIRGINIA
verktyg wrote:
In the mean time - Go shovel snow! Twisted Evil


I was one of the fortunate Virginians that was NOT hammered with 30"+ of snow. Mine is long gone.

I'll go back to the stove and stir the pot.

Jay

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:50 am Reply with quote
poufthecascadeur
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Location: toulon,france
i received today more pictures:













well the paint is absent on the top tube! but the frame and the fork are in reynolds....(tdf?)is it a good choice ?
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1976-77 TdF 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:37 am Reply with quote
verktyg
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 2813
Location: SF Bay Area
It looks like a nice frame that's well worth repainting.

Gitane changed the style of their decals around 1976, especially the head tube badge (tube de direction).

Top decal is from 1974-76, the bottom is from 1976 and 1977?


Reproduction decals are available for the 1974-76 models.

The frame looks like it has willow leaf shaped caps on the seat stay tops (chapeau sur le haubans en forme de feuille de saule). It could be a 1974 to 1976 Olymipic or Super Olympic frame. These frames would have a longer steering tube to fit a Campagnolo headset like the US Super Corsa models.



It could also be a 1976 Tour de France or similar model since some of those had the willow leaf seat stay caps too.

Too bad about the paint damage on the top tube. It looks like it may have been caused by heat from a torch.

_________________
Chas.
SF Bay Area, CA USA
==============
1984 Criterium
1969 TdF
1971 TdF
1974 TdF
1984 TdF x 2 Bikes
1970 SC
1971 SC
1972 SC
1984 SC
1984 Team Pro
1985 Professional
1990s Team Replica
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tdf? 
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